HBO BROADCAST TRANSCRIPT

April 18, 2008

Episode #614

“REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER”

BILL MAHER

CHRIS MATTHEWS

[via satellite]

CORNEL WEST

MARKOS MOULITSAS

 AYAAN HIRSI ALI

JEREMY SCAHILL

All “Real Time with Bill Maher” transcripts are prepared immediately following the initial HBO broadcast. Due to the speed with which these transcripts are prepared, complete accuracy cannot be guaranteed.

 [OPENING CREDITS]

[applause] [cheers] [standing ovation]

BILL MAHER: Thank you very much. How you doin’? Thank you. Aw, please. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Wow, look at them. Please. Jesus, you’ve been whipped into a frenzy. [laughter] Let it go, it’s just a show. No, I appreciate that very much, and I think I know why you’re really excited. Because you’re still tingling from that debate on Wednesday night. [laughter]

Did you see that? The debate was on ABC, on network TV, between Hillary and Obama. And it got higher ratings than “Deal or No Deal.” [laughter] Which was too bad, because you would have learned more about the economy from watching “Deal or No Deal.” [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

Right? I mean, this was quite a debate. They touched on all the important issues that are facing Americans today: bitterness, [laughter] flag pins, retired preachers, sixties radicals, imaginary Bosnian snipers, cookies. It was really quite a debate. [laughter] I don’t want to say Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos were awful, but today the FCC fined ABC for allowing “boobs” on the air. [laughter] [applause] [cheers] That’s – sorry, had to say it.

And is it just me, or is it weird to have a debate with commercials? Right? They kept interrupting for actual commercials. “Senator, are America’s best days ahead of us? But, first, an ad for a pill that helps you shit.” [laughter] [applause] It seemed wrong to me, I don’t know.

Of course, they dwelt a lot on the giant fake controversy that was started at the end of last week, where Barack Obama said that small town Americans are “bitter,” and because they’re bitter about politics, they’re “clinging to religion and guns.” Which upset these people so much they don’t know whether to turn the other cheek or shoot him. [laughter] [applause]

Now…as you would expect, Hillary was completely fake outraged by this. [laughter] Every day, she has called for him to retract these comments because they’re elitist and they’re offensive; they’re offensive to poor, rural Americans that she relates to. [laughter] And she is pulling out all the stops to let these people know that she is one of them. Today, she came out strongly against teeth. [laughter] [applause]

Come on. I think what these people care about, what most people care about, is that gas is very expensive. Isn’t that more important than who’s—[applause]—that’s a bitter…You know – you know that since George Bush has become president, gas has basically tripled in price. Now, Bush is an oil man. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m just saying that if we had elected Colonel Sanders president—[laughter]—and the price of chicken had tripled, I’d be a little suspicious. That’s all – I’m not getting – that’s all I’m saying. [applause] [cheers]

Okay, but – but, wait a second, because there is one man who has a solution: John McCain this week—[audience reacts with scattered negative noises]—John McCain presented his proposal. He says that over the summer, we should have a “gas tax holiday.” Ooh. [laughter] For summer drivers, the 18-cent-a-gallon federal gas tax, he wants that lifted over the summer. Or as it used to be called, “Grandpa is giving you five dollars.” [laughter] [applause]

And, not to be outdone on this subject, George Bush made a speech this week on global warming. The good news: he finally admits it’s real. The bad news: he wants to invade the sun. [laughter] [applause]

And, finally, did you see what’s going on down in Texas? This is unbelievable. Those 416 kids from the Mormonist sect – whatever they are – polygamist, break-off sect – they had to go before a judge – like, every lawyer in the state was there – to decide whether the kids are going to go back to their “ranch” [he winks] [laughter] or into foster care. Which is so sad, because some of these kids are barely old enough to know what’s going on, and they miss their husbands. [laughter] [applause]

All right, you sound like a great crowd. [cheers] And, I wanted to find out what people thought about foreign affairs this week, so we went out right next door here to the original Farmers Market, to see if people knew what was going on overseas. Take a look.

[CLIP SHOWN: INTERVIEWS AT THE FARMERS MARKET]

MAHER: So, let me ask you some foreign affairs questions.

WOMAN #1: Certainly.

MAHER: Because the news tells us lately that most Americans have tuned out this war in Iraq. Who are we fighting over there?

WOMAN #1: We are fighting—

MAN #1: [overlapping] We’re fighting ourselves, I think, at this point.

WOMAN #1: [overlapping]—yes, we are, at this point.

MAHER: Who are we shooting at?

MAN #2: We’re shooting at anyone that opposes the current Iraqi government.

MAHER: Wow, you’re up on this shit. All right.

MAN #2: I listen to your show.

MAHER: Well, who are we fighting?

MAN #3: Bush. We’re here for Bush. We’re there for Bush, for his dad.

MAHER: [overlapping] You think it’s just—for his daddy.

MAN #3: [overlapping] For his dad.

MAHER: [overlapping] You think it’s all personal, right?

MAN #3: I think it’s personal. We’ve got no reason—

MAHER: [overlapping] Right, his daddy lost the – or couldn’t…

MAN #3: Let it go. Let it go!

MAHER: [to two mothers with strollers] Are these your babies? Or did you just get them today in the mall? They seem very well-behaved.

WOMAN #2: So far so good.

MAHER: And I suppose it’s a necessary evil. Anyway, who are we fighting over there?

WOMAN #2: Well, I’d like to think that we’re fighting the terrorists.

MAHER: The terrorists?

WOMAN #2: Yes.

MAHER: Really?

WOMAN #2: Whoever they are.

MAHER: Well, yeah, who are they? That seems to be a very vague term.

WOMAN #2: Well, but they are the terrorists. That’s what we’ve understood. I mean, that’s what’s out there.

MAHER: Oh, that’s – I haven’t understood that.

WOMAN #2: Oh, okay.

WOMAN #3: [overlapping] Well, that’s what Bush says.

MAHER: If you’re going to – if you’re going to trash Bush, I’m not going to argue. [WOMAN #2 and #3 laugh]

MAN #4: He did his wrongs. He did his goods, and everybody…

MAHER: I’d love to know what his goods were.

MAN #4: Every president has done something good for us. Like, one thing or another.

MAHER: [overlapping] But, you mentioned this one. You said, “This president has done his goods.”

MAN #4: Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping] I’m asking, name one.

MAN #4: I don’t know. [laughter] I mean, he’s done something good for us.

MAHER: [laughing] Cesar, Cesar…You don’t think 9/11 was a Bush plot, do you?

MAN #3: Now, you really don’t want to go there with me.

MAHER: [overlapping] I do want to go there.

MAN #3: [overlapping] Because I do think it was too obvious when those…

MAHER: [overlapping] You do? I bet you I can prove to you Bush did not plan 9/11. You know how?

MAN #3: How?

MAHER: It worked. [laughter]

MAN #3: It worked. [he laughs]

MAHER: Let me ask you about another hot spot in the world: China.

MAN #2: Okay. China, okay.

MAHER: Olympics. People say Bush should boycott. Do you think so?

MAN #2: Well, I’ll put it this way. You can go into just about any one of these stores here, pick something up off the rack—

MAHER: [overlapping] Right.

MAN #2: [overlapping]—look on the bottom, it’s made in China. In China.

MAHER: [overlapping] Everything in Wal-Mart is made in China.

MAN #2: [overlapping] I mean, so why are we – why are we up in arms about the Olympics?

MAHER: Right.

MAN #2: The Olympics should be non-political.

MAHER: Right. China? People say, “Bush should boycott the Olympics, that the Chinese are bad – they’re bad! They’re bad people!”

WOMAN #4: No, the Chinese are not bad people.

MAHER: They’re not bad?

WOMAN #4: No, they’re not bad people.

MAHER: [overlapping] I guess they haven’t poisoned any of your kids yet.

WOMAN #4: Not yet.

MAHER: So, you’re saying the Chinese are bullies?

WOMAN #2: Yeah.

MAHER: And what specifically are they doing that bothers you?

WOMAN #2: They’re torturing the monks. They’re torturing these nice guys that just love and pray.

MAHER: America tortures.

WOMAN #3: But not so openly at least. [she laughs]

WOMAN #2: Oh, well—

MAHER: [overlapping] So, that’s the important distinction, is it? We do it on the down-low.

MAN #5: Do you know anyone who watches the Olympics?

MAHER: No, but I live here in Los Angeles. We’re too self-involved to watch a bunch of foreigners do gym. [laughter]

[to the two women with strollers] All right, babies, thank you very much. Very well-behaved. I give credit to the mothers.

WOMAN #3: Thank you.

MAHER: All right. Now, get ‘em out of here before I have to touch one.

WOMAN #2: [she laughs]

WOMAN #3: Actually, he needs a diaper change. Can you…[laughter]

MAHER: All right. Next! [applause]

[back to live] All right, we’ve got a great show. Dr. Cornel West is here. Markos Moulitsas and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. A little later, I’ll be speaking with our “Real Time” Real Reporter Jeremy Scahill. But, first up, one of the guys I watch on a regular basis on “Hardball” on MSNBC, as well as the weekly “Chris Matthews Show.” Our good friend, Chris Matthews! Chris! [applause] [cheers]

CHRIS MATTHEWS [via satellite]: Hey, Bill.

MAHER: Chris, my first question to you is when do you sleep? I seem to see you—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] I don’t know! [he laughs] [laughter] I’m doing “The Today Show” tomorrow morning. I’ve got about a three-hour break here.

MAHER: Yeah, I see you on your show. I see you on “Morning Joe.” I mean, I see you all over. You don’t seem to care about sleep. You’ll sleep—

MATTHEWS: No, well, this is Christmastime for me, and I’m selling Christmas trees, you know?

MAHER: [overlapping] Right, exactly.

MATTHEWS: This is the political season. So…

MAHER: Well, that’s why – one reason I wanted to have you here today, because you’re from Pennsylvania—

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping]—and the Pennsylvania primary is coming up, and these are your peeps. And you’re a blue-collar guy. I mean, you—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping]—I want you to explain to me this blue-collar mentality. Why they’re offended at Barack Obama. I heard you say the other day that – two questions you ask about politicians—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping]—are they one of us, and are they okay.

MATTHEWS: Yeah. Yeah, like, if you go to – if you go to most people, the first question they ask you – they don’t ask the politician; they think about it; they say, “Is this guy one of us? Does he care about people like me?” And then, once that answer is yes, then they go, “Is he all right?” And they go, “Okay, I’ll vote for him.”

It’s more about looking out for yourself and your kind of people. Yeah, I think that’s the way people vote. That’s the way people vote.

MAHER: [overlapping] But, doesn’t that? But, Chris, should we be encouraging that? If we’re asking the question, “Is he one of us?” isn’t that a question that—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] I’m trying to explain this Pennsylvania thing. It’s not necessarily about race. It could be, obviously. It’s not necessarily about class. It’s whether you connect or not. “Is this one of the people that looks like, seems like, is like me, feels like me,” that kind of thing. That makes common sense.

MAHER: [overlapping] Well, I thought – I thought when I got you on my show, I would be the one who could interrupt you. But, no. [laughter] It still works the other way. It’s still me who can’t get a thought out. [laughter]

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Okay, okay.

MAHER: [overlapping] It is amazing. You’re a very talented man. Uh,…

MATTHEWS: Can I tell you a story? [laughter] [applause as Bill shows his mock frustration] You know, last election…the last election, they asked the question—

MAHER: [overlapping] I cannot win with this guy.

MATTHEWS: Okay. They asked a question of, which one of the candidates: Bush or Kerry, if your car was broken down along the rode – you had a flat something, you needed a tire iron, whatever – would stop and help you. Well, neither guy got fifty percent, but Bush beat out Kerry, and that was a disaster. Because, if you’re a Democrat, and people don’t think you’re going to look out for the other guy, you’re finished, because you’re not going to win on law and order and national security and all that stuff.

MAHER: [overlapping] But, Chris, the president is never on the highway! [laughter]

MATTHEWS: I know.

MAHER: [overlapping] That would never come up. It has nothing to do with how a president affects people’s lives.

MATTHEWS: It’s about, is this guy on our side or not?

MAHER: [overlapping] And I heard…[laughter at Bill’s frustration with getting cut off] Yeah, go ahead. [laughter]

MATTHEWS: That was my point. I’m done.

MAHER: All right, but I heard you say on your show, you were talking about Barack Obama, and you said – and I know you like him – but, you said, “When he – when he goes into a diner, he can’t ask the average guy, you know, “How are the Phillies doing?” And all that stuff.

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Yeah. Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping] And you said, he was – at one point, he was offered coffee, and he turned it down and asked if he could have orange juice instead.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

MAHER: [overlapping] First of all, Chris, you don’t understand black people. They like juice. [laughter] Preferably gin and juice. [laughter] I know this…[applause]

MATTHEWS: No, no, not true. Let me – you know, it’s – you walk into a diner where these things – the grumpy old men are hanging around because they don’t want to be home with their wives for an hour a morning. And they’re hanging around there.

MAHER: Oh!

MATTHEWS: You know, and they want that hour away in that “third place” – we call it – someplace between work and home – and they’re hanging around there having a cup of coffee. And I noticed he couldn’t go up to people and just sort of say, “How you doin’? What do you hear?” He didn’t seem to know how to do that. And I think that’s going to cause him a problem in this election. Because that’s part of politics.

MAHER: [overlapping] Oh, I think you just caused yourself a problem at home. [laughter] Talking about causing problems, I wonder what your wife is going to say about that.

MATTHEWS: No.

MAHER: Speaking of which, Chris, I mean, you have been criticized about being a little sexist about Hillary.

MATTHEWS: Oh, thank you for that. Why don’t you put that in the bloodstream again? [laughter] Get that out there in the water.

MAHER: [overlapping] Well—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Get a little propaganda out there.

MAHER: No, but it seems like you – you—

MATTHEWS: Who’s criticized me? Hillary? Who’s done this? Help me out. [laughter]

MAHER: Yes, Hillary Clinton thinks that you’re sexist.

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Well, you know, she’s got a problem with a lot of us. [audience “oohs”]

MAHER: And who are you meaning “us”? Media? Men?

MATTHEWS: Well, not Media Matters, they’re on her side. No, media people, I think. I think she’s been tough on the media. I think she’s run a terrible campaign. She’s better than her campaign. I think her press people have caused more trouble than they’re worth. I think—[applause]—the guy running her operation, Mark Penn – she’s out yesterday saying, “Tell people when you go door to door, I’m not – I’m not not as bad as you think.”

MAHER: Right. [laughter]

MATTHEWS: I mean – and after all this billions of dollars she’s spent on the campaign, and we’ve got a worse impression of her than she is? That’s not a campaign. That’s a assassination. [laughter]

MAHER: But, don’t you think she has a point that gender has actually been a bigger factor in this campaign than race?

MATTHEWS: No, actually, there are more women Democrats than there are male Democrats. It should help her.

MAHER: Hmm. Okay.

MATTHEWS: Shouldn’t it?

MAHER: Why is she doing better with Catholics? You’re a Catholic—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] That’s a great one. That is a great question. She’s 65% in Pennsylvania right now against 26%. I bet she goes up to 70-75. I think that’s just another word for, you know, Catholics – small town, middle class. I don’t know. I can’t quite explain it. I don’t know the answer to that, Bill.

MAHER: Wow, I stumped Chris Matthews, everybody! [applause] [cheers]

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] I can’t help you.

MAHER: [overlapping] I stumped Chris Matthews! I should win something!

MATTHEWS: Maybe…

MAHER: [overlapping] They used to play “Stump the Band” on the Carson show. I should get dinner at Pepe’s for four. [laughter]

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] Maybe – let me – let me – let me find an issue that you agree with the Pope on here. You’re both against the war in Iraq. Catholics are generally against the war in Iraq, and Hillary voted for it. Maybe that would be a logical reason. I’m not sure it is the real reason. But that would make sense.

MAHER: Okay, so, let me ask you a personal question. You have been in politics before. You ran for Congress back in the seventies.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

MAHER: You’ve been – certainly worked on The Hill for people. You worked for Pat Moynahan.

MATTHEWS: Actually, I worked for Tip O’Neill for six years.

MAHER: Yeah, Tip O’Neill is who I meant. I confuse the Irish. [laughter]

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

MAHER: The scuttlebutt is that you are going to be running from the state of Pennsylvania in 2010.

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] No, no –[he laughs]—let me say this, that I’ve made a commitment to covering politics, starting in 1987, and I’m honoring that commitment, not getting involved in it.

MAHER: Really?

MATTHEWS: Well, really—

MAHER: [overlapping] Because, I mean—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping]—that’s the answer I’m giving you anyway. [he laughs] [laughter]

MAHER: Right. I was going to say. You’re used to people bullshitting you.

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] That’s all you’re going to get, Bill Maher. [laughter]

MAHER: We’re here on HBO—

MATTHEWS: [overlapping] But, if I ever – but, if I ever change my mind, I’ll come to you for some bucks, okay?

MAHER: All right. That’s “Hardball.” Chris Matthews, everybody! Thank you, Chris, for staying up. [applause] [cheers] Whenever your bedtime is.

All right, let’s meet the panel. [applause] [cheers]

All right. Here’s our panel. He is the Princeton University professor whose latest CD – wow, usually professors write books; this one has CD’s – it’s called “Never Forget.” Dr. Cornel West right over here. [applause] [cheers]

CORNEL WEST: Good to see you. Good to see you.

MAHER: Always good to see you. He, of course, is the editor in chief of TheDailyKos.com. Markos Moulitsas is over here. [applause]

And she is the very brave human-rights activist, former member of the Dutch Parliament, whose books, Infidel and The Caged Virgin, are now in paperback. Ayaan Hirsi Ali. [applause] [cheers]

AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Thank you, Bill.

MAHER: Good to see you again. Okay, I didn’t quite get to this with Chris Matthews, and I meant to, which is the debate last night, all the flak ABC is getting. You’re a media guy, or an alternative media guy – you all follow this. How could Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos, who are bright guys – I’ve been fans of theirs for years – how could they get it so wrong?

MARKOS MOULITSAS: I think it’s media elitism. [applause] Quite honestly. These are people – I mean, Charlie Gibson, in his last debate, talked about how a middle class family that makes over $200,000 a year should do X-Y-Z, right? He thinks middle class is $200,000 a year. So, clearly, he’s already out of touch. And, these are people who sit in New York and D.C. and think they know what small-town Americans think, right? And they think, well, this is what we’re going to give them, this is what – what they want to hear. But, it’s not true.

And that’s why you’re seeing such declines in the use of this mass media, traditional media like television, network news and newspapers, because they’re not giving people what they really want; they’re giving them this fluff, this crap that really doesn’t have any relevance to their lives. [applause]

MAHER: Right. And this stuff about Barack Obama being elitist. Let me ask you this, Doctor. Do you think a black man in America can be elitist? Can you be a black elitist in America?

WEST: Oh, certainly, certainly. But we have to define what we mean by “elitism.” See, “elitism” could mean just someone who knows more in the face of relative ignorance. [applause] Or, “elitism” could mean being arrogant, condescending and being haughty toward everyday people, or those Sly Stone called “everyday people.” And the question becomes, what kind of elitism are we talking about, you see.

If, in fact – I mean, for me, the fundamental question has to do what are the lens [sic] through which we actually view, or the criteria we evaluate the remarks made by the candidates? The media elitism is so true. But, what are the real standards that we have? If we’re concerned about unarmed truth, and understand the condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak, and unconditional love, understanding justice is what love looks like in public, then the question is what suffering voices did we hear in the debate, and what kinds of concerns about justice were manifest in the debate, including the questions, but also the answers. [applause] [cheers]

MAHER: Thank God, they just pay me to ask the questions. [laughter] And not – not to understand them. But – but – but, if I can “kitchen table” this for my people, the poor, rural people—[laughter]—it seems like at first they ask, you know, “Is he black enough?” Obama. And this question seems to be, “Is he dumb enough?”

You know, Americans seems to want to – they have to, like, hold their nose when they vote for a guy they think is smarter than them. Which seems so dumb. And the only reason I think this guy could win this time is because conditions are so bad in America that they’re willing to hold their nose and go, okay, I’ll vote for a guy who’s smarter than me. They want to think they could do the job themselves. That’s why they voted for Bush. [laughter] Right? [applause]

WEST: I mean, but it’s this – but, it’s not just a – most people, they’re concerned about whether you know, but they also are concerned about whether you care. They want to know that there’s compassion that is informing your expertise. We’ve had experts on the war in Iraq: indifferent, cold-hearted. Expertise without caring, it’s sounding brass and tinkling cymbals, brother. It’s empty.

MAHER: What do you think about America? [he laughs]

ALI: I think—

MAHER: [overlapping] Do you love America as much as Barack Obama? [laughter]

ALI: I love America very, very much.

MAHER: Aww. And we love you back.

ALI: [overlapping] I can’t measure how much—

WEST: Absolutely.

ALI: Thank you very much. I think it’s very – first of all, it’s very important to discuss issues of race. It’s important to discuss issues of gender. But never conflate – it’s very risky to conflate the candidates with race or gender. You can be a white male and run for presidency and fail, and that particular president has failed, and we move on. If you run on your color or on your gender and you fail, then it’s all black people who fail as presidents, weren’t – not good enough—

MAHER: Right.

ALI: [overlapping]—or all women who are not good enough. So, I would say, issues of race and gender are very important, and we still need to resolve those issues, but never conflate the candidates with it. [applause]

MAHER: And it seems – it seems doubtful that there are many other countries in the world where they would vote on the criteria we vote for, which is whether a guy – whether you want, you know, to have barbecue with the guy. And I’m saying, I think this year people are, like, “Look, we can’t afford to vote barbecue.” [laughter]

ALI: They’re right.

MAHER: [overlapping] “We voted barbecue last time, and this year, God, we’re going to have to vote taxes and issues.” [laughter]

ALI: Well, they are right. I think everyone feels we are living in a very dangerous world. Pakistan has a nuclear bomb and is in a kind of civil war, and is about to be run by either military despots or fanatical Muslims. Iran is preparing a bomb. The situation in Iraq has been talked about a great deal. And we have the food crisis. I think that the American, whether he lives in a small town or in a big city, is not very much worried about who he is going to have barbecue with.

MAHER: And he’s not very aware of those issues you just brought up.

ALI: Oh, they do, yeah.

MAHER: I think if Barack Obama had just chosen his words a little better, right, instead of saying that people were “bitter” and they “cling” to religion and guns, if he said they were “angry” and they “embrace” their religion, I think all would have gone away.

And I bring this up because last week I got into some trouble with the Catholic League – not the first time with the Catholic League—[laughter]—how many Catholic League members? Not my biggest fans – because I said in our little essay ending the show, I said, “The Pope” – and I looked at it again; I looked at the words carefully – “used to be a Nazi.”

Okay, now, first of all, it was a joke. [laughter] Okay, we’re in a comedic context. I said he “used to be a Nazi and he wears funny hats, and, ladies, he’s single.” [laughter] So, right away, we’re in the context of a joke. Okay, and “used to.” Now, but, you know what? You got me, okay. The Pope was not a Nazi. When he was a teenager, he was in the Hitler Youth. Which meant that he said the oath directly to Hitler and not to the Nazis. Which is sort of worse. [laughter] Okay. [applause]

But, wait a second. The thing that argues for their side of this is that, you know what, he was coerced into that. He was a teenager. I wouldn’t blame any teen – he was a fourteen-year-old kid in Nazi Germany. Of course he’s going to do what they tell him to do.

So, on that score, you know what, my Catholic friends, I will never make the “Pope is a Nazi” joke again. Because, you’re technically right, okay, and also because it distracts from the main point. And the main point I was making was that if the Pope, instead of a religious figure, was the CEO of a chain of nationwide daycare centers who had thousands of employees who had been caught molesting children and then covering it up, he would have been in jail. [applause]

So – and I notice they didn’t say a word about that.

WEST: Yeah, yeah. I think – I think that your point was that we all have to be accountable, and we all are flawed. Dogmatic popes are flawed. Professors are flawed. Talk show hosts are flawed. We’re all flawed.

MAHER: [overlapping] What?! [laughter]

WEST: But it’s very important – but, the crucial—

MAHER: [overlapping] But, when you’re a pope, you don’t – you’re not flawed before the law. Because the [in air quotes] “religion” has entered into the equation, you don’t have to answer to anybody. He is, after all, infallible.

WEST: But, only since the 1870s, has there been a notion of papal infallibility so the Catholic—

MAHER: [overlapping] Okay.

WEST: [overlapping]—but, keep this in mind. This is the thing that – that’s important to keep in mind for me, though – that the Pope is not the Catholic Church, and that popes themselves don’t constitute even the best of the Catholic tradition. We’ve got Catholics around the country and the world who are progressive, who are concerned about working people, poor people. [applause] And we want to keep track of those prophetic ones: Michael Flager – my dear brother, Father Flager, St. Sabina in Chicago – on the cutting edge of concern about the poor.

MAHER: But, isn’t the trouble with the Catholic Church, is that they always protect the institution of the Church before they protect the flock or the spirit of the teachings of Jesus Christ. [applause]

MOULITSAS: Well, this is – I mean, developing what Cornel is saying – the institution protects itself, obviously. That’s what institutions do.

MAHER: Right.

MOULITSAS: Now, there are Catholics all over the world who are – and I’m a recovering Catholic—[laughter]—you know, I used to be one of those.

MAHER: What do you mean, “recovering”?

MOULITSAS: I used to be one. And I…shed those shackles.

MAHER: So, you’ve renounced it.

MOULITSAS: Of course. Yes. I grew up in Latin America, in El Salvador, very heavy Catholic tradition.

MAHER: Oh, yeah.

MOULITSAS: And…but, there – there’s good things to the religion. You know, I left it for good reasons. But, there’s also good. And the – the dedication of social justice—

MAHER: [overlapping] Yes.

MOULITSAS: [overlapping]—in the Catholic Church, I think, is unparalleled in any other religion, in any of the other major religions, anyway. [scattered applause] So—

MAHER: No denying that.

MOULITSAS: Right. [voices overlap] So the institution itself is rotting. I mean, it’s a rotting corpse.

WEST: But, when you look at American culture, I mean, probably the greatest novelist writing today is Catholic. Her name is Toni Morrison. One of the great public intellectuals, Garry Wills, Catholic. When we think about Catholicism, like any other tradition – liberalism, democratic tradition – it’s flawed. But you have to keep track of the best. You’ve got to have an attitude of gratitude. What gifts has the Catholic tradition given us? Shakespeare had a Catholic education. Thank God for William Shakespeare. Thank God for Montaigne, thank God for Erasmus, thank God for a whole host of Catholic figures.

But, at the same time, the patriarchy is ugly, the homophobia is ugly, the history of anti-Semitism—

MAHER: [overlapping] And, also, I would ask the question, is that if someone wants to do the good works that I totally agree that people under the Catholic umbrella do around the world and here at home, I don’t know why you need the bells and whistles of religion to do it. [applause] Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie go around the world and do good things, and they don’t have to bring Jesus into the equation. You know, they don’t have to say, like, “Hey…,” you know.

WEST: No, that’s true. I mean, I can agree with that. I can agree. But, I mean—

MAHER: [overlapping] “There was an earthquake in your country. Sorry you’re suffering. You want a sandwich, kid? Ub-bup-bup! Take Jesus first.” [laughter]

WEST: But, Brother Bill, Brother Bill, it’s different strokes for different folks.

MAHER: I agree.

WEST: You know, I mean, some people want their rituals—

MAHER: Right.

WEST: [overlapping]—some people want Eucharist in a certain way. We can understand that. The important thing is what is the quality of their service to the least of these—[voices overlap]

MAHER: [overlapping] Right, but the point we’re making is that when you – that I was trying to make—

WEST: Yes.

MAHER: [overlapping]—is that when you gather the kind of power to a human being on earth that a religious person gathers – being able to tell people they know what happens when you die, and I can make the rules – abuses are going to occur. That’s way too much power for one person to have. [applause]

WEST: Oh, absolutely. That’s true.

ALI: As a…as a “recovering Muslim,” [laughter]—

MAHER: Yes.

ALI: [overlapping]—I have – one believes in chasing me down the alley – I don’t want to take on another religion – but I think for – and I – I have respect for people who say religion is a source of – is a source of happiness for them. But, I – and we all condemn and should condemn anytime people use religion as a way of taking the freedoms of others. Let me be free to make my own mistakes. [applause] And then give me the dignity to learn from my own mistakes.

MAHER: And, by the way, while we’re on the subject, let me correct some of the things people have said about me this week that are not factually accurate. One, they said, “He goes after the Catholics, but he leaves the Muslims alone.” Hello? Have you ever watched my show? [laughter]

MOULITSAS: No, they haven’t.

MAHER: Yes, we did a Muslim fashion show last season. [laughter]

ALI: Oh, that’s good.

MAHER: [overlapping] That was pretty – they were all in burkhas. No, I’m an equal-opportunity offender. I don’t like any religion. And my movie comes out about it this summer. [laughter] [applause] It’s called “Religulous.” It’ll be in theaters. Anyway…

And also, they said that I’m a bigot. I’m not a bigot, okay? A bigot means you’re prejudiced. I’m not pre-judging. That’s where prejudice – where that word comes from. I’m not pre-judging the Catholics who commit these abuses. I’m judging. Yes, I’m judging. [laughter] That’s different than pre-judging. Okay. [applause] So, let me—

WEST: [overlapping] Nothing – nothing wrong with it. But, I mean, I think that – I mean, I think one of the reasons why you’re so deeply loved is that you have a commitment to unarmed truth. You say it in a comic way. The question is, though, whether your understanding of religion is deep enough so that you understand religious people are not simply passive and compliant and deferential. They can also be empowered and ennobled to fight for truth and justice. Like Martin King and others. [applause] So, the question would be, given your commitment to truth, would you recognize the degree to which, when you talk about Muslims and Catholics and Christians and Jews and other—

MAHER: [overlapping] I will never – you know, I can never go – I can never – no, I can never go there with you.

WEST: [overlapping]—there’s a whole lot of different kinds of religions.

MAHER: [overlapping] Last week – last week, I had on Richard Dawkins, the great atheist writer. We know him well.

WEST: Dogmatic as he can be. Go right ahead.

ALI: [overlapping] No, he’s not dogmatic.

WEST: Oh, yes, he is.

ALI: [overlapping] He’s very rational. Very—

MAHER: [overlapping] He’s very rational. Okay—

WEST: But, rational – a dogmatic rationalist.

MAHER: [overlapping]—and we were talking about – yes, that’s true, too.

ALI: [overlapping] I have a different opinion.

WEST: [overlapping] That’s not an oxymoron.

MAHER: You’re right.

WEST: Absolutely.

MAHER: But, we were talking about Francis Collins, the great scientist.

WEST: Yes.

MAHER: I interviewed him for this movie I was just talking about. And he is one of the few – because we wanted to talk to a guy who is a brilliant scientist, but one of the few scientists – most scientists are atheists or agnostics – who is religious. And I said that he believed in the talking snake. Which is my shorthand for believing in the Bible, word for word. Because in the Garden of Eden, there is a talking snake.

ALI: Yes.

MAHER: Okay, now, he – he wrote me and he said, “I don’t believe in the talking snake.” But, he is a Christian. He does believe that Jesus Christ flew bodily up to heaven. To me, it’s a distinction without a difference: talking snake, a man can fly up to heaven, this mythical place in the sky. You know, you either are a rationalist or you’re not.

WEST: [overlapping] No, no, no, no, no.

MAHER: [overlapping] And to draw those distinctions—

WEST: [overlapping] But, let me ask you a question, Brother Bill—[voices overlap]—when you first fell in love in a deep way, didn’t you feel like you were flying up to heaven? [laughter]

MAHER: I remember…I remember at one point saying, “Oh, God, oh, God, oh, God!!” [laughter] [applause]

WEST: [overlapping] No, Bill, there are mysteries. There are mysteries in life. And there’s magnitude to those mysteries.

MAHER: There are mysteries.

WEST: Absolutely.

MAHER: And the answer to a mystery is to say, “I don’t know.”

WEST: [overlapping] I agree. I agree.

MAHER: [overlapping] Not to make – not to make up a story. [applause]

WEST: [overlapping] But, “I don’t know,” doesn’t mean you therefore end up being agnostic or atheistic. “I don’t know” might be just trying to live in the midst of your doubts and uncertainties and mysteries by holding onto truth and love.

MAHER: Right.

WEST: That’s why I’m a Christian.

MAHER: But…okay.

WEST: Ahhhh. You see? [applause]

MAHER: Let’s – let’s bring out our “Real Time” Real Reporter whose book, Blackwater, just earned him the prestigious Polk Award, Jeremy Scahill is right over here. [applause] [cheers] Jeremy. There you are. [Scahill joins the panel] All right. So, let’s get off spiritual matters and get back to politics. You just spent some time in Pennsylvania, to get to the real bottom of what’s going on there.

JEREMY SCAHILL: And I left my flag lapel [sic] there. Pin. [laughter]

MAHER: And, without saying too much about it, why don’t we just show the piece you brought, because I think it explains it. Tell us the towns you were in.

SCAHILL: We went to Allentown, Norristown. We went to a place called Trooper, Pennsylvania. And the idea behind it was we were sort of looking at this spin of the Clinton campaign that you have Pittsburgh on one side, Philly on the other and Alabama in between.

MAHER: Right.

SCAHILL: What we found is that sort of Alabama kind of likes Barack Obama up there. And, in fact, I thought we were going to end up at a “Bigots for Obama” rally at one point. [laughter] But it didn’t quite go down like that.

MAHER: And you went to where? Gun – gun ranges?

SCAHILL: We – you know, the interesting thing, we got turned down from 15 gun ranges when we told them we were from “Real Time.” And I was like, “Hey, Bill Maher wields a pistol all the time around L.A.” [laughter] And, you do.

MAHER: I don’t “wield” one. [laughter] I have a gun. And it’s not a pistol, motherfuckers. [laughter] [applause] This ain’t no stick shooter I got. I got a big…nobody’s coming into my bedroom. [laughter] Uninvited. [laughter] Anyway, let’s show your tape.

[CLIP SHOWN: JEREMY SCAHILL IN PENNSYLVANIA]

SCAHILL: We saw on the Obama website that you guys were doing a “Bikers for Obama” rally today. You were saying you hadn’t really ever supported a candidate before.

MAN #1: I’m just sick and tired of it. I am “bitter.” I mean, you know, what he said – he may apologize for the words he used, but I don’t think he had to.

SCAHILL: Have you ever supported a candidate before?

MAN #2: I supported George Bush. And I was happy with some of the things he did. But I’m voting Obama this time.

SCAHILL: Wow, that’s quite a jump from having supported Bush to going to Obama. Are you going to meet up with some people today?

MAN #1: Yeah, there’s a conflicting ride.

SCAHILL: Can we go there?

WOMAN #1: I’m going to take your spot. And you’re going to take mine on the bike. But it’s actually – the position is called “riding bitch.”

MAN #3: We do a run every year. We call it the “Strip Poker Run.” We go to different strip clubs. You get a card at each one. And, you know, you get to see some naked girls.

SCAHILL: I think you stole some of Tony’s thunder. He was trying to do a “Bikers for Obama” rally today, and everybody came here instead.

MAN #3: Yeah, yeah. Well, hey. Bikers for Obama or naked girls, you know what I mean?

SCAHILL: Who are you throwing your support behind?

MAN #3: I’m definitely not going the Republican side. Ever since Bush has been in office, I notice there’s a lot less money in my pocket.

SCAHILL: Do people seem to be leaning more toward Hillary or Obama?

MAN #4: I’d say probably Obama.

SCAHILL: You have a feeling that Obama is—

MAN #4: I have a feeling that he can do better than anyone else who’s been doing it here. And it’s time for a change.

SCAHILL: People say the Clintons have a lot of support among white working-class. But what you’re saying then seems to kind of buck that.

MAN #3: I don’t care who could do the job as long as the job is done.

MAN #5: I have three kids and I want the future for my kids and my grandkids to be as hopeful as what I had.

[sequence at a gun range: “Pistol People”]

SCAHILL: I wanted to ask you about some of the comments that Senator Barack Obama has made where he talked about people in Pennsylvania being bitter and clinging to their guns.

MAN #6: I think anybody with an intelligence level can read through the comments and understand the comments in totality. I don’t think it was reflected to denigrate anybody in the state of Pennsylvania. He was sharing the concerns legitimate people use every day of the week.

SCAHILL: It seems like the issue of the Second Amendment, gun rights, is becoming a pretty big one for the Pennsylvania primary.

MAN #7: Well, there’s not much difference between Clinton and Obama. We would regard them both as being very anti-gun.

MAN #8: The general well-being of the United States is my concern, and it seems Barack Obama has that intent in mind.

MAN #6: I’ve been a registered Republican for many years. And, for the first time, I see somebody who is not a – quote/unquote – “Washington politician,” I would even have the tendency to vote Democratic in that respect. [with Scahill on the shooting range] Three out of four bullseyes. Very good job.

SCAHILL: With Obama now trying to reach out to white voters, would it make that big of an issue if he came out and said, “I’m entirely supportive of the Second Amendment”?

MAN #7: I don’t think it would make a bit of difference. I’m sure he is going after the gun owners in Pennsylvania because this is a huge gun-owning state. [showing Scahill his guns] This is a SIG-Sauer. I’m being careful here because this is loaded, and it has no safety. [laughter] Which is good. Safeties are bad. [applause] [cheers]

MAHER: Thank you. So…

SCAHILL: I have to tell you, Bill—

MAHER: Yeah?

SCAHILL: [overlapping] When we were at the – not the “Bikers for Obama” rally, but when we were at the “Strip Poker Rally,” one of the guys came up to us. He goes, “You’re from Maher’s show.” We said, “Yes.” He said, “I’m more of a Bill O’Reilly man than a Bill Maher fan, but Bill Maher gets much better women.” [laughter] There’s the praise for you.

MAHER: [overlapping] Wow, there’s a high bar to jump over. [laughter] And I’m interested. You said to me before the show, they all knew our show.

SCAHILL: Oh, yeah.

MAHER: How come people – the poor people – have HBO? [laughter]

SCAHILL: Well, YouTube.

MAHER: Oh, YouTube.

SCAHILL: You know, YouTube – yeah, I think a lot of people – they’re all like, “Oh, you can catch it on the YouTube.”

MAHER: Oh, wow.

SCAHILL: I mean, the other thing is that a number of people—

MAHER: [overlapping] Note to HBO executives: we’re losing money.

SCAHILL: [overlapping] Well, a number of people – a number of people said to us, “We cant’ afford it.” I mean, these towns have been hit so hard.

MAHER: Right.

SCAHILL: And that really is the defining factor. On guns, people say, “You show me the person who’s going to take my gun away. That’s not the big issue here. We’ll have our guns whether it’s Obama or McCain.” To them, the big issue is the economy. I mean, they’re losing their jobs.

MAHER: Right.

SCAHILL: [overlapping] It’s bad. And they know that Bill Clinton pushed through NAFTA. And so that’s – that’s pushing back on Hillary Clinton right now.

MAHER: [overlapping] Is he – is he less popular than he used to be?

SCAHILL: Oh, yes. No question about it. I mean, we had several people who said, “We don’t want Bill Clinton running around the White House again, especially with nothing to do.” [laughter] [applause]

MAHER: Yes. With time on his hands, I could see that might be a problem. All right, let me ask you this. This – this book is coming out by Kevin Phillips called Bad Debt in America. [“Bad Money”] You know this – this subject that he’s talking about? Which – it sort of speaks to what’s going on in this country, with poor people, and it’s going to hit the middle class and the rich, too. It’s basically saying that America doesn’t make anything anymore except debt. There’s this amazing statistic: “In the last 20 years, the fastest-growing business, debt, quadrupled to $48 trillion.” Our system, our economy is basically based on charging interest to people.

SCAHILL: We met – we met a guy who comes up to me, and I had wanted to interview him. He goes, “Oh, no, no, no.” He’s like, “I just started a new business and I don’t really want publicity. But my business is doing really well.” And I said, “What do you do?” He goes, “I’m a repo man.”

MAHER: Right.

WEST: Wow.

SCAHILL: I mean, he was dead serious. He was a repo man. He did give me his card, though. I don’t know why, but…[laughter] He knew I was coming.

WEST: We can see how sad this really is, though, because, again, if we really want to tell the truth in a fallible way, we’ve got corporate greed running amok; you don’t have enough jobs with a living wage for fellow citizens; unavailable health care and child care for millions, disgraceful school systems, failing infrastructure; and then you have a political sphere where you can’t have a critical debate or dialogue about these issues. And then we’ve got imperial occupation in Iraq. Now, that – that’s the makings of the collapse of an empire. [applause]

SCAHILL: And look at Iraq—[voices overlap under applause]—in Iraq right now, there are – there are 630 corporations on the U.S. government payroll. They employ 180,000 individuals from 100 countries around the world. There are more so-called contractors than there are troops. Over $2 billion a week go into Iraq; 40% of that goes straight to the war corporations. And then you go to Allentown, Pennsylvania, and you talk to a die-hard Republican who voted twice for Bush, and he says, “What the heck are they doing paying Halliburton over there when I just lost my job, my wife’s working two jobs; we can’t – we can’t even pay for basic living expenses for our kids.” That’s why they’re coming out against the war.

MAHER: They can’t afford to vote barbecue. [laughter] [voices overlap]

SCAHILL: They can’t afford to have a barbecue.

MAHER: They can’t afford to have a barbecue. [laughter]

MOULITSAS: You know what’s amazing about this whole thing is, you know, Obama talked about class, which really is the third rail of American politics. They say Social Security is. I think it’s class. And—

MAHER: [overlapping] “Class,” meaning?

MOULITSAS: Inequality between the shrinking middle class—

MAHER: [overlapping] Right, the poor, the middle class, the rich.

MOULITSAS: [overlapping] Exactly. Right, exactly. And so, you know, the “bitter” comments come out. And, you know, and Obama was really talking about – when he talked about clinging to religion and to guns, he was talking in the political context. He wasn’t talking about life. He’s not saying, “You’re poor, therefore, you’re religious.”

MAHER: Right.

MOULITSAS: [overlapping] He’s saying, you’re voting on those issues.

MAHER: Right.

MOULITSAS: [overlapping] Because you’re poor. And you don’t feel the government can – can do anything to improve your life.

Now, what did McCain and what did Hillary Clinton say? They said, “No, these people who are economically downtrodden, they’re “resilient,” they’re “optimisitic,” right? They’re – and so they’re “happy” being screwed over—[voices overlap]

SCAHILL: Well, Hillary had just done a shot when she said that—

MOULITSAS: [overlapping]—right.

SCAHILL: [overlapping]—so that was Canadian whisky, so…[laughter]

MOULITSAS: So, you know, you’re talking about “out of touch” and “elitist,” right? You’ve got these patronizing politicians saying, “Oh, no, you’re totally happy that you’ve been screwed over and dicked over by the system.” [laughter]

MAHER: [overlapping] Right.

MOULITSAS: [overlapping] Obama actually – that’s why these people are saying, “You know what? I agree with what he said.” And the polling since those comments that has been released, show that Obama is surging despite this manufactured outrage, despite all the pundits in Washington, D.C., and Chris Matthews, and New York City, saying, “Oh, you know, small-town Americans are so offended,” as though they’ve even seen a small-town American in decades. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

WEST: Absolutely.

MOULITSAS: He would have said it better than me, but…

WEST: [overlapping] Oh, as much as I support my dear brother Obama, I mean, one way of looking about it is there is a spiritual dimension that’s not reducible to the political. Because part of our empire has to do with the spiritual malnutrition and moral constipation in our society, which is greed, bigotry, indifference to others, especially those who are suffering, as opposed to compassion and a concern about public interest and common good. Now, these spiritual issues of compassion and love and hope, that’s not just a matter of how the government is doing. People are going to die. People are sick. They have to have some hope in the face of the ultimate facts of the human condition. And politics comes and goes—

MAHER: [overlapping] Yes, I’m – I’m not—

WEST: [overlapping]—so they’re tied together, but they’re not identical.

MAHER: I’m not that up on the “moral constipation.” [laughter] But the malnutrition – interesting you bring that up, because I’ve been reading every day in the paper – you mentioned this earlier in the show—

WEST: [overlapping] Absolutely, these food riots, oh, my God.

MAHER: [overlapping]—this food crisis. You know, I mean, in Haiti, they’re rioting over food. Philippines, Bangladesh—

WEST: [overlapping] Absolutely.

MAHER: Egypt. Food is becoming a real issue around the world. Not that there wasn’t starvation always. But, you know, there are people who can’t get food who used to be able to, and the reason is, food prices have gone up because oil prices have gone up. And also because things like ethanol – because we’re diverting the resources to the – the corn is going into ethanol, which is a boondoggle, and therefore, it’s not available for people to eat. You – you must know about this. You’re from Somalia.

ALI: I was born in Somalia. I grew up in Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and Kenya. And the little girl that was on the cover of the New York Times, the front page today, that was the normal scenery when I walked from school—

MAHER: [overlapping] What was the picture?

ALI: [overlapping]—from home to school. The picture is in the New York Times, but when I was in Somalia—

MAHER: [overlapping] But, what was it of?

ALI: It was of a girl on a garbage heap looking for food, standing on a garbage heap.

MAHER: Right, right.

ALI: And children in African countries, famine drought, standing on garbage heaps, is the kind of most familiar picture I know. So, when I listen to Americans and other people in the west, you know, talking about poverty here and things being bad in America, I always think, oh, wait until you get to Africa or parts of Asia, parts of Latin America. So, it’s very relative, all of that.

Biofuels – when I – I was born in 1969 – when I was growing up, biofuels wasn’t a problem. What was a problem was the whole subsidizing of farmers in the west, and them—

MAHER: [overlapping] Still goes on.

ALI: [overlapping]—that still goes on. What was also, and has never been spoken about, is the habits, religious dogmas and the way of life of the people who are starving themselves. So, if you look at the current crisis now, you’d say, “Okay, listen to the World Food Program. Give them – give them the $700 million they’re asking for. Take care of the – take the emergency out of the way, then deal with the dumping and the subsidies. But, then ultimately, we have also to get down to the choices that people make, and the dogmas, the ignorance, the superstition, the mistreatment of women. And all of that combined is what brings people in so-called “developing countries” go from one crisis to the other.

MAHER: And, could I add one more thing that starves people? Eating meat. Because the amount of grain it takes to feed the cattle, when you eat that high up on the food chain, it starves people lower on the food chain. It takes an enormous amount of resources to make a pound of meat. You eat meat, Doc?

WEST: When I can get to it, yeah, I do. [laughter]

MAHER: When you can get to it?! What does that mean?

WEST: [overlapping] I’m on the run, brother. I’m on the run.

MAHER: [overlapping] The end of the day, I’m a little jammed. I’d love to get to some meat. [laughter] But I just don’t have time to—

WEST: [overlapping] No, it might be – sometimes it’s just a peanut butter-and-jelly sandwich. I don’t have time.

MAHER: Well, that’s probably better for the planet.

SCAHILL: I mean, global food prices have gone up 83% over the past four years. And how can we not see a connection between the policies of this administration, these aggressive, offensive wars that are, in part, over oil, but a lot to do with looting the U.S. Treasury, and the fact that food prices are skyrocketing across the globe. I mean, in this country when diesel is almost at four dollars a gallon, that has a direct impact on how much – I mean, I’m from New York – there are bagel shops that have stopped making certain kinds of bagels because they said New Yorkers won’t pay two bucks for a bagel. That has – it’s a direct relationship to global oil prices, to gas prices in the United States, particularly diesel prices.

MAHER: New Yorkers will pay two bucks for a bagel. They pay – we pay four dollars for a cup of coffee. Are you kidding? Two bucks for a bagel?

SCAHILL: Maybe not in my neighborhood, but…

WEST: It depends upon which New Yorkers you’re talking about. We’ve got 21% of our precious children living in poverty in the richest nation in the history of the world. That’s a moral disgrace. [applause] [cheers] A moral disgrace. Now, it’s not the same kind of problem they’ve got in my dear sister’s home, it’s true. I mean—

MAHER: Now, you’ve written extensively – you just mentioned it – about the treatment of women around the world.

ALI: Yes.

MAHER: What do you think about this – this compound in Texas that’s gotten so much media attention in the last couple of weeks? These polygamists. I know you come from a part of the world where polygamy is probably the norm.

ALI: I celebrate what the government is doing, cracking down on that. I see it as the beginning of the end of multiculturalism. Minority communities using religion and cultural arguments to take child brides, to practice forced marriages, to subjugate women, and wanting to be exempted from the law that applies to everyone else—[applause]—I’d rather…and I just want to add one more thing. I just want to add one more thing, and to say, now it’s the polygamists here; next, they’re going to crack on female genital mutilation; they’re going to crack on honor killings, and I think we should really, in this case, support that. [applause] [cheers]

MAHER: Right. Well, as you can see, the crowd is very much again female genital mutilation. That and honor killings – I don’t know if we have that in this country.

ALI: Well, you have forced marriages, pretty much.

MAHER: Right.

ALI: It is what the children that came out of these compounds, the seven teenage girls—

MAHER: [overlapping] But, as we’ve seen the story unfold this week, I’ve seen an awful – I’m with you – but, there’s an awful lot of these kids, and the mothers who are saying, “Yeah, but now we don’t have our kids.” You know, I don’t know if the kids are – are better off, necessarily, without the mother. It would be a shame – can’t they find a way to do it so that the kids are with the mothers and not with the state, and still not being abused?

ALI: I’ve listened to an ex-member of that particular sect talk about it, and she said, “You don’t have to separate them for a long time. You can get the mothers out. They’ve been indoctrinated. You can have them deprogrammed. Give them their children back. But, also, they care about the children – their children, and teach them why it is wrong for these children to be raped and abused.

MAHER: But, can they be deprogrammed?

ALI: Yes.

MAHER: I saw this woman on “Larry King,” this woman in the pioneer outfit, and she had one eyebrow that went all the way—[laughter]—I mean, it was – I was, like, what about that couldn’t they have solved back before 1890? [laughter] Even cavemen, I think, could have gotten a sharp stone and went, “Ooh, let me just get that…” [laughter] [applause]

SCAHILL: You know, they – last night, they went and pulled down the statue of Bush on the compound, a bronze statue, they took it straight down. [laughter]

MAHER: All right. Thank you, panel. You did an extraordinary job.

ALI: Thank you. [applause] [cheers]

MAHER: Jeremy, it’s always great to see you. And now it is time, ladies and gentlemen, for New Rules! [applause] [cheers] New Rules.

Okay, New Rule: [slide of movie posters for “Made of Honor” and “Prom Night”] If women stop making every movie about getting married, men will stop making every movie about killing you. [laughter]

New Rule: You shouldn’t have to pay for a stamp to mail your taxes. [applause] [cheers] You are sending your money to the same people who sell you the stamp. [laughter] It’s like a collection agency calling you collect. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

New Rule: Airlines should just get it over with and start putting passengers in the cargo hold. [laughter] [applause] Let’s face it. You’ve already taken away the leg room, the food, the pillows. The only thing left is to tag us, load us onto the conveyor belt—[laughter]—and let us fight over who gets to sleep on the bag of mail. [laughter]

New Rule: The Pope must wear a slip. [laughter] [applause] I’m sorry, but some people just shouldn’t do “casual Friday.” [laughter] And, I don’t understand. Usually, the Catholic Church is so good about covering things up. [laughter mixed with hoots] [applause] [cheers]

New Rule: Crappy companies don’t get to merge with other crappy companies. [laughter] [applause] This week, Blockbuster Video announced a hostile takeover of Circuit City. What a brilliant idea. The two places nobody goes anymore finally under one roof. [laughter] Blockbuster’s plan is to combine their expertise in never having the video you want—[laughter]—with Circuit City’s high-pressure sales staff of ignorant teenagers—[laughter]—to create the ultimate in horrible retail experiences. [laughter] [applause]

And finally, New Rule: Referring to voters who America has left behind economically as “bitter” isn’t an insult. In fact, it’s a compliment, acknowledging that they’re smart enough to understand what’s happening to them.

The hopeful, now those are some idiots. [laughter] [applause]

So – so, let’s separate the bitter – my people – from the idiots. If you think the Democrats are going to take away your Bible, you’re an idiot. If you think they’re going to take away your gun, you’re an armed idiot. [laughter] And if you think they’re going to take away your gun and give it to a Mexican to kill your God, you’re Bill O’Reilly. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

Now, at the end of last week when Barack Obama ignited the “bitter-gate” scandal, you would have thought that he had scaled Mount Rushmore, dick-slapped Jefferson in the face—[laughter]—and spray painted “God damn America” over Lincoln. [laughter] But, he wasn’t lying. The truth is that religion and guns and hating gays and immigrants, are crutches that people lean on. So are fast-food, crystal meth and child beauty pageants, but we don’t have time to tackle all of America’s addictions in one night. [laughter]

So, let’s focus on the big thing. That the people who claim to be the “non-elitists,” are the ones who constantly shift tax burdens from the people who fire you, to you. John McCain voted to repeal the estate tax, voted against raising the minimum wage, has no health care plan, and is fine with keeping the working class in Iraq for a hundred years. But, he’s a real “man of the people.”

And the president went to Harvard and Yale, and inherited your country from his dad. But, he’s not an elitist because he can neither read nor write. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

What does it take to label someone “elitist” these days anyway? They wear shoes? [laughter] They don’t buy their groceries at the gas station? Their dog has a name and their truck doesn’t?! [laughter]

You know who is bitter in America? I am. Because shit-kickers voted twice for a retarded guy they wanted to have a beer with, and everybody else had to suffer the consequences! [applause] [cheers]

Thank you very much. I want to thank Dr. Cornel West, Markos Moulitsas, my great friend Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Jeremy Scahill. Don’t forget, you can watch us right now continue our discussion on HBO.com. Thank you, folks. [sustained applause and cheers]